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Interview of Saleena Karim

Last Updated on Monday, 06 December 2010 16:44 Friday, 03 December 2010 02:10

Leaders

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TM: What inspired you to write a book setting the record straight with respect
to Justice Munir?

SK: My original research began with an accidental discovery that a certain speech
of Jinnah (the Munir quote – http://www.secularjinnah.co.uk ) could not be traced
to any of Mr. Jinnah’s speeches but could only be found in Munir’s From Jinnah
to Zia (1979) – or so I thought at the time. I had simply intended to write an article
explaining the issue with the quote. In fact I almost didn’t even write the article
as I had not grasped the significance of what I had found. My research took me in
unexpected directions and I began to see there was much more to the story of the
quote than I had first realised, but I kept the book relatively short. Sometime after
SJ1’s (Secular Jinnah, 2005) release I discovered that the Munir quote actually had
its origins in the ‘Munir Report’ of 1954 – i.e. same author, but different publication.
Interestingly, the Munir quote was first used to deadly effect in the Pakistan
Constituent Assembly debates of 1954, shortly before Ghulam Muhammad dissolved
the Assembly. I have reviewed this in detail in SJ2, but otherwise my book is not
centred on Justice Munir’s quote.

TM: What are the differences between the two editions – the original SJ1 and the
new SJ2?

SK: SJ1 was a shorter book and it emphasised the Munir quote. SJ2 has a similar
title, but as such it is completely different in terms of both style and content, even
though it contains everything from SJ1 with updates. In addition, SJ2 covers pre-
partition history in detail, including the Round Table Conferences of the 1930s, Mr.
Jinnah’s differences with Mr. Gandhi, the provincial elections of 1936-7, and the
Pakistan movement. I have also looked in detail at the constitutional background to
the Lahore Resolution; I have reviewed the Cabinet Mission Plan in more depth than
in SJ1; I have reviewed the debate over the Objectives Resolution; and I have looked
at Jinnah’s attempts to retain national unity in Pakistan in the eighteen months before
his death.

TM: Some people on Pakistani media have said that Quaid-e-Azam was not a
democrat but was a dictator. Was he a dictator or a democrat, or was he in favor
of a Khilafat System? What did Quaid-e-Azam think of an Islamic system of
governance?

SK: The Quaid was a strong leader and he often had to make tough decisions. But in
no way was he a dictator. Throughout his career he always respected and represented
the interests of his people, even when he did not personally agree with them. He is
one of the few true democrats of recent history. I have discussed this at length in SJ2.
The Khilafat – by which I assume you mean the Khilafat of the last millennium – no
longer exists with good reason. It self-destructed because it was no longer Islamic.
The original Khilafat in early Islam had started out as possibly the earliest known
precedent to a modern presidency. It had taken the political system in fashion at the
time – monarchy – and reinvented it within the dictates of Islamic idealism. Instead
of being passed to family members, the new Caliph was elected with no regards to his
socio-economic status. Unlike the kings of old, the Caliph did not enforce a despotic rule, and instead consulted with his people on equal terms. But within a few decades
this system had gradually declined back into a monarchy combined with theocratic
elements. It survived for a time, but its annihilation was inevitable.
There is no crystallised ‘system’ in the Quran, but every Quran-based system must
follow the same core principles or it will fall, whether it calls itself a khilafat, or a
presidency, or a parliamentary democracy, or anything else that we could conceive of.
I doubt that Mr. Jinnah would have called for the revival of the Khilafat, even though
he spoke often of Islamic socialism and Islamic democracy. He never offered his own
blueprint for a constitution, but rather he said that the ‘millat and the people’ would
be responsible for putting it together. In this he followed the Quranic democratic
principle of ‘mutual consultation’ (he himself referred to this Quranic principle).
From everything I have read, it is far more likely that Mr. Jinnah envisioned a
democratic political system that could operate within today’s global environment, but,
just like the original Khilafat, it would be one that was founded upon the universal
ideals of justice, liberty and unity – hence his term, Islamic democracy. This is in
keeping with the timeless spirit of Islamic idealism, which transformed the monarchy
into the Khilafat during the Classical era. I have gone into some detail on Islamic
idealism in SJ2.

TM: What was Quaid-e-Azam like as a person, leader, and nation-state founder?

SK: That question would require a book to answer, and there are quite a number
available. Every well-known biography reveals aspects of Mr. Jinnah’s personality
and his political leadership. I will not recommend any title in particular, but I would
suggest that all who are interested in what made him the ‘Quaid-i-Azam’ should try
to read literature from various sources to get an all-round picture, bearing in mind that
you can’t believe everything you read, but most books contain shades of the truth.
My own book is more a political biography than it is a general one, though I have
touched upon his personal life in places. It is also as an examination of pre-partition
and early Pakistan history from 1906-1954. As for the Quaid’s personality, much is
said about him as a ‘cold’ or emotionally detached leader, but this really only tells
us that he was an immensely private person. The only ones who knew what he was
really like are those who lived with him or were around him everyday. Nevertheless,
the one outstanding facet of Mr. Jinnah’s personality that is acknowledged by even his
foes is his sense of honesty. It was primarily on this basis that I took his statements
on Islam and partition seriously and not as mere rhetoric to please the Muslim masses
or to bargain with his political contemporaries. In doing so, I discovered much about
his outlook on Islam, and have come to realise that in fact he is a rare type of Muslim
who has been much misunderstood.

TM: In SJ2, what do you mean when you say that Quaid-i-Azam is neither
secularist nor religionist nor a product of synthesis (secular-Islam)?

SK: Quaid-e-Azam seems to have been misunderstood because many commentators,
Muslims included, have not viewed Islam as he did, and so they look at his
personality and career through their own prisms. His speeches and writings provide
clear and definitive evidence that he was neither a secularist in the technical sense
any more than he was a religionist in the technical sense. The same is true for Iqbal,
who is wrongly accused of being the leading light in favour of what is sometimes
called ‘secular-Islam’ – a supposed mix of old religious concepts and present-day
political theories. Without getting too philosophical, Islam and secularism are based
on completely different views of the universe, which is why combining them is
absurd. Islam is neither a religion nor a polity but a code of conduct that influences
our every action. Jinnah said it best when he said that Islam was about life. Both
he and Iqbal understood this, and I have provided ample proof from their own
statements.
I have spent a long time looking at the peculiar syntax of the Quaid’s statements,
and have concluded that he belongs to a distinctly different category of thought, as
does Iqbal. I have shown that Mr. Jinnah’s choice of words and phraseology changes
in a particular manner from the mid-1930s onward. It is for these reasons that I
have said that the Quaid was neither a secularist, nor a religionist, nor a ‘secular-
Muslim’. I have also outlined in SJ2 what he really stood for, and again have provided
documentary proof. Hopefully readers will see that it is necessary to re-evaluate the
Quaid’s so-called ideological leanings before we can find clear-cut answers to other
seemingly difficult questions, such as the actual meaning of the Two-Nation Theory.

TM: Have we as a nation done justice to Quaid-e-Azam as founder of a nation as
other nations treat their founders?

SK: This is difficult to answer with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Compared with most
others, and on the historical scale, Pakistan is a young country. She is still finding her
feet. As I wrote in my preface, the debate over the Quaid is not really about him and
his personal preferences, but about the Pakistan idea. Was there ever a Pakistan idea?
What was it? Was it realistic, or a pipedream? Once Pakistanis reach a consensus (and
this could take a very long time), then perhaps they will be in a better position to
answer such a question. Time will tell.

TM: What was the influence of Allama Iqbal on Quaid-e-Azam's political career
or political ideology?

SK: In SJ2, I have looked at the differences and parallels between the careers of Dr.
Mohammad Iqbal and Mohammad Ali Jinnah. They were both long-serving members
of the Muslim League and both were genuinely concerned about the condition of
Muslims in India. But they had different ideas on how to resolve the Hindu-Muslim
dispute, and thus how to uplift their people. In fact even into the 1930s, the two were
not fully in agreement on their respective political approaches until after 1936. Iqbal
had warned that the Indian social fabric (namely the Hindu caste system) urgently
needed reform before Hindus and Muslims could work together effectively to attain
independence. In those days he predicted that Indian society would not be true to the
democratic principle because this was contrary to Brahminism. So he became
a ‘separatist’ earlier than did the Quaid. Mr. Jinnah meanwhile was an optimist and so
he did not accept this prediction for a long time. Even at the start of the provincial
elections of 1936, he said that in the future Hindus and Muslims would become
either ‘partners’ or ‘nations’. It is obvious from that speech that he hoped, even at this
stage, that they would opt for the former. This was the first time he ever described
Muslims as a ‘nation’ rather then as a ‘community’ (this is significant in political
science), and he rarely used the word at this stage. After the Congress won the
elections, it took steps to secure an unrivalled dominance. It tried to effectively
dissolve all other parties including the Muslim League by demanding that they sign its
pledge unconditionally. It enforced the highly controversial Wardha Scheme of education, in which Hindu culture was said to be ‘imposed’ on all Indian school
children whilst simultaneously suppressing non-Hindu cultures. There was an outcry
from minority and ethnic groups, and not only Muslims. This was enough to convince
Mr. Jinnah that Dr. Iqbal’s warnings were correct, and I believe it was at this point he
really began to agree with Iqbal’s separatist stance. Though we have no direct record
of Iqbal’s intellectual influence on Mr. Jinnah, I have produced evidence of this
influence through a comparison of the Quaid’s statements and letters with statements
and writings of Iqbal. The parallels are quite revealing.

TM: Recently some pseudo-liberal left scholars of Pakistan have said that neither
Jinnah wanted Pakistan, nor Iqbal talked about creating a separate homeland
for the Muslims of India, and that Jinnah was forced to make demand for
Pakistan because of Indian Congress attitude. Is this true?

SK: It is true that Dr. Iqbal did not demand partition, because in his time it was
completely impractical. Choudhuri Rahmat Ali – who of course coined the
word ‘Pakistan’ – had in mind a ‘Commonwealth’ of all Muslim-majority territories
including Afghanistan, Sri Lanka and Bengal. Ali’s ideas, originally published in
1933, were romantic and completely unrealistic. Iqbal’s more pragmatic ‘separatist’
scheme – and really it was a ‘prediction’ rather than a ‘demand’ (as he himself said)
came three years prior to that. He called India a ‘continent’ in any case, so his
recommendation for provincial autonomy was a pragmatic and relatively painless
means of securing Muslim homelands which for all intents and purposes would be
free. His hypothesis about the Indians’ readiness for democracy was put to the test in
1936. He lived just long enough to see his prediction proven correct, and he died in
1938, two years before the Lahore Resolution. Having looked at the available
evidence carefully, I am convinced that had he lived into the 1940s, Iqbal would have
backed the partition demand and he would have likely taken the lead alongside Mr.
Jinnah in uniting the Muslim masses, looking for educational or other intellectual
means to do so. As for the claim that Mr. Jinnah did not really want partition, I have
discussed my point of view in detail in SJ2, but there is something that I think we
should draw some attention to. People have long been treating ‘partition’ as something
of a dirty word because they equate it with ‘balkanisation’. Some misguided (however
well-intentioned) Pakistanis are really just trying to apologise for the events in 1947.
But partition and balkanisation are not one and the same. ‘Balkanisation’ literally
means the creation of mutually hostile states. It basically means a state created of hate.
The Congress propaganda machine of the 1940s often used the most frightening
language to put people off the idea of partition. It continuously implied that Pakistan
was being created expressly to be an enemy of India, and that it intended to revive
Muslim imperialism. In reality nothing like this was on the agenda, and the Quaid
emphatically denied the claims. He differentiated between partition – which he
described as a parting of ‘friends’ – and balkanisation, which became the tragic reality
of 1947 for both Pakistan and India. He was not, as Time Magazine unjustly called
him, a ‘man of hate’.

TM: When will your book be available in Pakistan and in Urdu languages which
is very important?

SK: My book is on contract with a Pakistani publisher for both an English and Urdu
edition. The English edition is due for release on 25 December 2010 at the Karachi
International Book Fair. The Urdu edition should be out early next year.

Secular Jinnah & Pakistan: What the Nation Doesn’t Know
By Saleena Karim

Tel: (+9221) 34310030 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (+9221) 34310030 end_of_the_skype_highlighting Fax: (+9221) 34553772
Head Office address: 152 / O, Block 2, P.E.C.H.S, Karachi 75400, Pakistan
Website: www.paramountbooks.com.pk
Also, the price is: 495 Rs.
Release date: 25 December

Saleena Karim is a British Asian writer and editor. She is also founder/director of
the Jinnah Archive online. Though she has a BSc degree in Human Biology from
Loughborough University, her passion has always been writing, in whatever form.
She has worked as a webmaster, as a literary columnist and as an editor; she has
translated a number of Urdu articles into English; and she has also been a co-writer
for a UK television show (Deliver!). Her first non-fiction book, Secular Jinnah:
Munir's Big Hoax Exposed (2005), received critical acclaim. Her main subjects of
interest are Islamic ethics and M.A. Jinnah.

Talha Mujaddidi is founder of Bridgehead Institute a think tank based in Pakistan